Curse

Iskrah · May 04, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Do you all know the controlling alliances?
I would not judge groups of people you do not know.

Really that's not what I've meant. I respect the really hardcore gamers in GW, I was impressed by Avarre running Drok with a Mesmer, I love to watch the top guilds in GvG, and I'm sure most of them are nice people... It was not my point. I discussed facts and possibilities but I did NOT say that winners are asses... Why would I?

adventchildren · May 04, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Must blow for all of the casual players. Whenever I saw the ELITE MISSIONS on the box I was excited, but I guess it was just an empty marketing gimick.

I was looking foward to them too but o well, gj anet.

"Will take someone to elite missions for 25k!"
"New Elite Missions Service charging 50k per visit!"

Vel Satis · May 04, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

This sucks. At least with the favor system a large proportion of the player base would be able to enter, with this system i'm pretty sure I (and about 99% of the rest of the GW population) will never see these elite missions.

vtrajan · May 04, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

What I was implying is that you can approach them and offer yourself as a member.
Especially if you're mature, intelligent and capable. Even if casual. 100k ish faction a week for the guild helps.

I hope you all understand that you can't piggyback someone new to the roles, mission or the game just because they pay you 50k.
The mission is titled "elite" because of it being exclusive -and- because of the content.

Also -- there's at least 4 alliances on the Kurzick side challenging The Lotus Alliance and Empire Kurzick.

So, that's at the very least 5 alliances that are -just starting out- that are vieing for it.

You are making this out to be much worse than it is.

strcpy · May 04, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

This ened up working as If feared it would, at least for now.

I am a one person guild, always have been and always will be. There was no place I was denied access, we got favor and I could go (I wish we had henchies there, but that's a minor complaint). I may not go for a month at a time, I may spend quite a bit of time there - yet I could go. Even things like HoH I could go (even though I wasn't ever competitive enough - I could *still* go if I gave it some effort).

For this - can I go? Nope, unless something drastically changes I'm out. I'll never be able to get enough faction for my guild for me to go - it's not worth it for the top players who control the area. And how about those without a guild? Even worse shape than I am. It's like livelock - it's not that it's "impossible", it's just that I'm always going to be such a low priority that I will never make it (if I'm a level 1 priority and goofing off in the game is level 3 I'll never get picked). It doesn't matter how hard I work, how good I am, I can never contribute enough to be worth their time in this system.

Games generally are driven by the top end players, funded by the middle and lower (a little over 84% of your players are going to fall into this category - that's a simple fact from bell curves or normal distributions and not some number I just made up. Also note that's about the number Anet says has less then 20k in the bank). Thus to exclude (and I'll be generous here ) 60-80% of your player base from playing any part of the game forever is, well, stupid. It's killed games (both video games and real life games) in the past, and it will in the future again.

I wish they had an automated method where small guilds (like me) or people not in guilds, can join (purchase into) an alliance. Heck, you can even set it up where you can't switch but once in a while so you really are a part of that alliance - at least I will know that at sometime I will get into the missions. I'll give it time and see. It wouldn't take that big of a change to make it all inclusive.

Eclair · May 04, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

What I was implying is that you can approach them and offer yourself as a member.
Especially if you're mature, intelligent and capable. Even if casual. 100k ish faction a week for the guild helps.

I hope you all understand that you can't piggyback someone new to the roles, mission or the game just because they pay you 50k.
The mission is titled "elite" because of it being exclusive -and- because of the content.

Also -- there's at least 4 alliances on the Kurzick side challenging The Lotus Alliance and Empire Kurzick.

So, that's at the very least 5 alliances that are -just starting out- that are vieing for it.

You are making this out to be much worse than it is.

Originally, people thought that 20,000 people would have access to the elite missions, and look at how much uproar that caused.

Now only 2,000 people have access, so of course a lot of people are pissed off^^

UndeadRoadkill · May 04, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

In reply to many of the above posters here:

It's not *just* that so many people are excluded from content, it's that the whole system destroys the "small guild with close friends" thing. Now we have to choose between a huge alliance of strangers or a casual group of friends.

I guess I was just being a naive dumbass, but when Gaile said, "just wait and see how it is before complaining," I took that as a reassurance that we shouldn't worry, not that she literally meant, "yeah, it's going to be exactly what you don't want it to be, but we just don't want to hear what you think about it right now."

Gli · May 04, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Maybe the reason you have no shot at gaining access to these elite, competitive PvE missions is that you're not competitive...not even having the drive to do something as simple as setting up a time to dump faction.

Gee, maybe you don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about? I'm as competitive as hell. Maybe I just don't have the time nor the inclination to be drawn into a huge, time-consuming metagame involving dealing with hundreds of faceless internet jocks. When did 'being competitive' in a game stop being about just sitting down and playing the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

To all the people who are again using the silly logic that you're being denied access to "a part of the game that you paid for", that's just ridiculous. You bought a game that labels itself as a competitive roleplaying game, you paid for the ability to compete for the best stuff.

It's a huge leap from being a game labeling itself as competitive to being a game you can't play to the fullest without immersing yourself deeply in some kind of nonsensical meta-game that has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on on the screen when you're playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Frankly, it's no mystery to me why the top alliances have decent to heavy PvP guild involvement; these are the people who, instead of immediately going to the forums to bitch and whine, actually have the drive to go out and grab what they want in the game.

Yeah, me and my 4 currently active guildies would love to be able to do that as well.

The point is, no matter how skilled and competitive you are, if you're not willing or able, for whatever reason, to play hard and often, and to waste heaps of playing time not really playing the game but involving yourself in doing god knows what it takes to make your mark on some kind of totally uninteresting social stage that exists somewhere outside the scope of the actual game, you're going to be excluded from content. Success is no longer a measure of skill, it's now a measure of how deeply you're willing to involve yourself with the meta-game.

sir lockt · May 04, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Believe me: the costs to enter the mission will rise to 1000*10000, so 10 mil at least: The massive uber alliance simple hold the faction they have untill all members are loaded and dump it on the same time...

The point above is made clearly: only LARGE factions can enter, the point about degredation is foolish, because 1000 ppl can keep the faction flowing in faster than 100...so they can handle more degredation, so there Steady-state will be much higher...

The favor system was much more fair, because of the time differences: I see america is holding the hall now again more often... In the night and mornings (in europe) europe isnt holding the HoH. the favor system is just more fair, due to its large player base it influences... Alliances only affect 1000 players. So with over an million players... thats an awefull small amount.

But to be honest, I am not bothered a lot by not able to enter elite area's. I think when I really want to enter it, I think it is possible. In fact: 1000 players from an alliance can haven entrance, so in theory 1000 parties...Hopefully those alliances bother in sharing their access. And about money for entry: thats just what the fool pays for it. If the entire community refuses to pay 10k for entry, they will drop in price... and besides that: faction farming is something different than doing elite area's...

Sirus Dibley · May 04, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Yeah its really not gonna work - say an alliance holds the elite areas , think of all the players wanting to join that alliance. Before you know that guild has 2000 players and no one else gets a look in.

Great idea on paper , but in reality disaster. Like most of factions in all honesty.

vtrajan · May 04, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

It's a huge leap from being a game labeling itself as competitive to being a game you can't play to the fullest without immersing yourself deeply in some kind of nonsensical meta-game that has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on on the screen when you're playing.

That does not make any sense. Please go cool down and rewrite it.
You can play the game to its fullest, but given that it is a Competitive Online RPG there are some things that require <gasp> competition, skill, and playtime.

Quote:

Yeah, me and my 4 currently active guildies would love to be able to do that as well.

I'd love to see your 5man Urgoz build. Why would you even try for something you would get no farther than 30 seconds into? Are you really -that- upset you'll stomp your feet over two pve missions in this game?
Maybe you'd like to try WoW or EQ2? Or DD:O....

Quote:

The point is, no matter how skilled and competitive you are, if you're not willing or able, for whatever reason, to play hard and often, and to waste heaps of playing time not really playing the game but involving yourself in doing god knows what it takes to make your mark on some kind of totally uninteresting social stage that exists somewhere outside the scope of the actual game, you're going to be excluded from content. Success is no longer a measure of skill, it's now a measure of how deeply you're willing to involve yourself with the meta-game.

Again this doesn't make any sense. All I can read is your rage.
The faction that you need to acquire for the guild has nothing to do with a social stage. It has everything to do with accumulating X amount to overcome Y amount.
If you're skilled enough you find ways to maximize your time. You don't want to do what's necessary to be competitive? Cool.
Don't make expectations that because you're not as into the game or competitive the manufacturers and creators have to make adjustments for you.
Your numbers are not backed up. I do see where most of you are irritated with such limited access, but I do not agree.
Guild Wars is a competitive online rpg. Meet new friends, hook up, and start competing. You do not wish to compete with people that are "hardcore" about this game? ($50,000 divided by 8, anyone?) then I don't think a competitive online rpg is what you're looking for.
Ryl maybe?

Cheers man!

Eden2k5 · May 04, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Good thing there aren't roll cancels or sidestep cancels in Guild Wars!

I need more invincible frames when doing my spells!

Lord Dobo · May 04, 2006, 08:07 AM // 08:07

I think this can all be solved if they rework how an alliance gains a city. I would prefer it if they set up qualifying missions that ranked guilds per week by performance in the mission. Each city could have a different goal... survival in a siege, protection of a key strategic point... just all graded and ranked. That way, numbers mean nothing and skill can rise to the forefront. Then, the skilled will get the cities and will gain access to the elite missions. They are more suited to the challange than an alliance of 1000 random players anyways. Just my two cents. Anet really dropped the ball in their design of factions. I'm dissapointed at every turn... good thng it's online and patchable.

Kalki · May 04, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

It's not only unfair, it's horrible game design.

So when only 1 team wins the Stanley Cup, Super Bowl, World Series, etc... it's horrible game design? You gotta be kidding me.

I'll probably never see the inside of the elite areas, but I'm not complaining. It gives competitive people something to strive for, and for that it is great game design.

Ezekial Bain · May 04, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Actually vtrajan, as far as I can see that post made perfect sense.

You seem to be saying that the solution to the 'problem' of elite missions is "you need to be more competative". However there is FAR more to it than that.

Basically, the Elite Missions go fundamentally against the "Guild Wars Principal" of skill-over-grind. Now, if you ever want to have any chance of getting access you must grind away to earn faction. You must also be lucky enough to have a big guild of like-minded people and also be in a large alliance, also of like-minded people. You must invest a HUGE period of time to have any hope of getting these elite missions and you must spend this time GRINDING, which is generally not fun. As said, it's a meta-game in itself which is no longer what Guild Wars is.

I will freely admit that I am not a very competative person. I generally stay away from PvP and play PvE almost all the time because of it's co-operative nature and the fact that it is more relaxed and chilled out.

This doesn't mean I suck, this doesn't mean I am a bad player who'd get crushed in Elite Missions. I have done every quest in 'Prophecies', done many UW and FoW runs with great success, on my first run through the main storyline factions missions I have only failed a mission twice. I play sensibly and can both lead a team and follow orders...

In short I would say I'm a pretty decent PvE player and so are most of my guild. We have done great runs in all of the End-Game PvE content in Prophecies and I fancy we'd do quite well in the Elite missions. Only... we will never EVER have access to them.

This won't make me rage-quit or anything, heck I LOVE Factions and am having a great time on the new missions, exploring the new locations (I love the Jade Sea...) and playing with my new Mesmer (who looks like some kinda Anime pretty boy hero).

However, ANet seriously messed up on the alliance-control system. Cutting out 95% (possibly even more) of the players from some of the missions is just a bad, bad idea. "Favour of the gods" is a bit annoying, but I can live with it. Why not have the Elite missions controlled in the same way, but allow access to them for everyone in the same Faction as the controlling alliance (i.e. Luxons or Kurzicks). Much better! (though this would kinda require the "elite mission" towns to be along the border instead of being the capital cities... wouldn't want Kurzicks flags flyign over Cavalon all the time...).

Anyway, I've gone on enough for now, but basically I'm saying there is FAR more to it than "just be more competative". The vast, vast majority won't ever control a town and many won't be able to do anything about it without seriously ruining the way they play (i.e. for me it would involve leaving my medium-sized, friendly PvE focused guild and trying to join one of sprawling hyper-dedicated PvP alliances... which I just don't wnat to do).

So, in conclusion... bad move ANet.

Gli · May 04, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

That does not make any sense. Please go cool down and rewrite it.
You can play the game to its fullest, but given that it is a Competitive Online RPG there are some things that require <gasp> competition, skill, and playtime.

It makes all the sense in the world and I'm as cool as I'm going to be about it. The fault lies with you, you're just myopic in your point of view.

Competition: check
Skill: check
Playtime: check, though your mileage may vary as to how much is actually an acceptable minimum to be considered a competitive player.

I still fail to see where playing in a small group of friends instead of playing footsie with hundreds of people I never met in my life comes into the equation and puts you on the sidelines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

I'd love to see your 5man Urgoz build. Why would you even try for something you would get no farther than 30 seconds into? Are you really -that- upset you'll stomp your feet over two pve missions in this game?
Maybe you'd like to try WoW or EQ2? Or DD:O....

I wouldn't know if I can't get into it would I?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Again this doesn't make any sense. All I can read is your rage.
The faction that you need to acquire for the guild has nothing to do with a social stage. It has everything to do with accumulating X amount to overcome Y amount.
If you're skilled enough you find ways to maximize your time. You don't want to do what's necessary to be competitive? Cool.

With a 10k personal faction ceiling my guild won't be able to produce 'competitive' amounts of faction, regardless of how skilled or competitive the individual players are. Even if we 'spike' and convert all at the same time, which some of us wouldn't even be able to do more than once a week or so, it'll be a pathetic drop in the ocean. Being competitive in small groups and in small doses won't be enough. Where's the old 'skill over time played' platitude?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Don't make expectations that because you're not as into the game or competitive the manufacturers and creators have to make adjustments for you.

We're very competitive and into the game, but (to repeat the phrase) in small, irregular doses and in select company. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy our 4 man FoW clearings as much as the next man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Your numbers are not backed up. I do see where most of you are irritated with such limited access, but I do not agree.

What numbers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Guild Wars is a competitive online rpg. Meet new friends, hook up, and start competing.

Why on earth would I want to go out and try making friends over the internet just to play a damn computer game when I have a guild with real-life friends to do just that? That shouldn't be a requirement of being competitive. It isn't in any definition I encountered before Factions hit the streets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

You do not wish to compete with people that are "hardcore" about this game? ($50,000 divided by 8, anyone?) then I don't think a competitive online rpg is what you're looking for.

It's not that I don't want to, it's that there's no room for it. Individual accomplishment and even the accomplishments of groups people who succesfully carved their way through practically all of what Prophecies had to offer has been rendered insignificant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Ryl maybe?

I have no idea what that means.

Snowman · May 04, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20

whats that? there are only two elite missions?

but there are quite a few outposts you an control, what do they give you ?

Gli · May 04, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaine Derrick

Do you honestly believe that the most powerful alliances are merely huge mobs of random people? The PvP alliances, at least, will have played together very often, and in more stressful situations than the Underworld or Sorrow's Furnace.

Really though, it boils down to people not willing to be competitive enough in order to reap the rewards, and instead of trying to become competitive, they whine about it on the internet. Alliance battles are a rerawd for being competitive, much like the GWFC playoffs and prizemoney, except instead of real money you get shiny items and cool fake money. They were never intended to be available to any random person, that's why they were made a reward. PvE players have been asked for a way to become recognized more, and for things such as a "PvE World Championship", well here it is. Town control is your championship, and elite missions are your reward. Now go out there and compete in order to win it, and if you don't like competition, stop whining about not getting the reward.

For the red engine's sake, I am willing to be competitive, I'm just not willing to sign up with a freaking army to do so.

UndeadRoadkill · May 04, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtrajan

Guild Wars is a competitive online rpg.

Is it? I've been playing for a while now, and all I've ever done in this time is cooperate.

Justafyme · May 04, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Ryl...risk your life. Horrible game. Craptastical..actually.